Should I fold or call?

Online tournament at AbsolutePoker/UltimateBet

I am a well known player over there (I won both Yearly Tournament Leardeboard on 2008, Two sites merged at end of 2008).
I have no ideal how he plays.

I raised 3.5x from middle position with AQ, only my left called me.

Flop  KKQ:  I bet 60%, he call;
Turn  5:     I bet 60%, he re-raise double, I call;
River  K:    I check, he bet the pot ($600)

I had about $5000 chips

I typed: K?
He typed: Yes

Should I fold or call?

it would be an easier fold for you if you check and raised after turn even though the pot size is the same.
or check and call on turn hoping for a smaller pot for show down.  betting again after turn on that board with AQ is probably not a good move. you are building the pot up while it is possible that you are drawing dead.  
but overall it is only 1/10 of your total stack. He could just have pocket 10s and betting you don't have a Q or K. Call to see his card is also a good investment:  1) you get to understand how he plays his hand 2) make an image of calling station, so he won't bluff you as much down the road..  [s:167]

Hi windstormm,

Thanks for your input. My thinking process is as below:

He re-raise double: I put him on K>Q (blocking my river bet)>AA (testing I had K or Q)>others.
Another K at River: I put him on Q, after all, the chance he had last K is small.
He bet pot: I put him back on K instantly (I knew he think I will not believe he had the last K, therefore he bet large and want to make the most. I had similar situation before. Board AA999, I had 9, I am sure opponent had A. I bet HUGE all-in at River when I first to act, opponent can not letdown his A. This is calling "Experience").

I fold. He showed K.

You said:
"check and call on turn hoping for a smaller pot for show down. betting again after turn on that board with AQ is probably not a good move. you are building the pot up while it is possible that you are drawing dead."

I don't agree with this. It will be a little passive.
First, there is nothing indicating he had the K at Flop (It is easy to say once you know he re-raised at Turn). He could think you missed flop; this is just a continuation bet. He could call the flop with many other hands.
Second, you forgot the other side. You don't want give the free card to him. He could catch straight if he had AJ, AT, JT, J9, T9; He could catch full house with any pairs; He could chop with you if the Ace coming at River and he had Ax, Q coming and he had Qx.
Finally, even you got re-raise, and then you got the important information that he probably had K, and it helped me fold at River in this case.

If I am not bet on the Turn, he will bet at least half the pot, I will call. He will bet pot at River, I have to call (How can you sure he had K, not the Q or even bluff without he re-raise at Turn information?). So I will lose much more chips if I didn't bet at Turn.

You said:
"but overall it is only 1/10 of your total stack. He could just have pocket 10s and betting you don't have a Q or K. Call to see his card is also a good investment: 1) you get to understand how he plays his hand 2) make an image of calling station, so he won't bluff you as much down the road.. "

I will not call to see his card if I am quite sure I am behind. I will cut loss. Every chip is my soldier, and I love my every soldier.

By far, I am the best known player (won most yearly, monthly, weekly tournament leaderboard and profits) over there, no one except fishes (then depend how many fishes over there, ha-ha) will believe I am a calling station.

if you reread my post. my first option is check and raise turn, check and call is only a secondary alternative.
but again, you are the best player out there, probably knows much more than I.  [s:167]

I will not call to see his card if I am quite sure I am behind. I will cut loss. Every chip is my soldier, and I love my every soldier.
He re-raise double: I put h ...
pan300at 发表于 2009-8-15 19:04

know what makes u a winning player now.thx for your wonderful posts

Nice post.Thanks for share your handhistory.
I learn more here.

very good player

He played well, and you too.
by cold call on flop you got no information for his hand.
by raise and get called at turn, he can be sure you had a Q+ so he manage his river betting size
by betting pot at river, he would get max value knowing that you had Q and hard to fold( in which case you did n't bite the hook anyway)

I would re-raise on turn to avoid tough spot at river like this. Yes you may loose a little more but you are more comfortable at river ,or even similar situation later.

Honestly, it is not a easy fold at river like this, You did the right decision FOR THIS HAND ONLY,

but it is very easy to be wrong, either call and lose or being bluffed away.

He played well, and you too.
by cold call on flop you got no information for his hand.
by raise and get called at turn, he can be sure you had a Q+ so he manage his river betting size
by betting pot at river, he would get max value knowing that you had Q and hard to fold( in which case you did n't bite the hook anyway)

I would re-raise on turn to avoid tough spot at river like this. Yes you may loose a little more but you are more comfortable at river ,or even similar situation later.

Honestly, it is not a easy fold at river like this, You did the right decision FOR THIS HAND ONLY,

but it is very easy to be wrong, either call and lose or being bluffed away.


As U said: by raise and get called at turn, he can be sure you had a Q+ so he manage his river betting size.

If he only has Q, he knew people will call with Q and Fold with less than Q for pot size betting. Also I could have AA or K. Plus with my experience AA999 as mentioned before. Of course, I can not 100% sure, But I put him the chance had K or AA larger than 95%.
Also from math calculation, U profit $300 by calling if he had Q. U will lose additional $600 by calling if he had K or AA. So this is not very tough fold.

The most tough fold should be David Chiu folded KK preflop.

Would you checked A's full on the last positon？
A few years back, when I was playing $400-800 Limit Hold'em at the Commerce, I was holding AA on the button, there were three ways action, one of the regular pros from Taiwan“Sam”was in the early position coming with a raise，I made it three bets，the big blind cap with four bets，Same called and of course I did the same。Flop came A 9 3 rainbow，BB checked， Sam bets， I just flat called，turn was a Q，BB checked again，Sam fired once more， I raised，BB made it three bets，Sam fold。（After the hand was over， Sam told me he had AK）。I raised again，river came another Q，he checked。Guess what？I show my AA and checked behind him。He was jumping out of his seat while showing his QQ and was screaming at me：“David， how the hell you check your A's full？”I replied with a smile：“Buddy， you had a tell from New York City to Los Angeles“。
Honestly，I would never able to do that online。